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Do we still play by the rules?

October 26, 2011

I have this friend. I’ve talked about her before – but it should be noted that we’ve become better friends since I last brought her up. This would be one of the reasons this blog is anonymous – because I’m not always nice.

Regardless. For about the past four years, she has brought up, on occasion, her interest in women.

On occasion, that interest has been directed at me.

She has never been with a woman before, but she’s really  like to. In fact, she believes herself to be a 3.5 on the Kinsey scale (self-proclaimed) but has never actually dating and/or had intimate relations with the fairer (ha ha) sex.

I do believe the closest Miss Three-Point-Five has gotten was a friend’s wedding several years ago. If you look back at the pictures, there is a series of the two of us at a table, with one of our guy friends awkwardly off to the side. Basically, in all three, she’s giggling uncontrollably and I look like I’m about to devour her.

Shortly thereafter, I dragged her lil ass to the parking lot. We made out some. And she giggled some more.


I saw Three-Point-Five recently out and about. As is often the case when she drinks, girl was practically humping my leg. Yet again. Oh yes, and did she mention that she and her BF broke up? She did?

And I thought, well ok, then. This might actually happen. That’s chill (I should mention I have no emotional involvement here. Aside from being into the whole sex thing, I don’t really care one way or another if this happens. Plus, let’s be honest. It’d be her first time with a chick – so I’d be doing all the work. Not that I mind at all – I really enjoy pussy. Anyway. Moving on.)

But then. I go to leave. I tell her (quite pointedly, I might add) to call me. She says no you call me

Basically, by the end of this little exchange, it became really clear to me… this girl wants to be pursued.

Huh? What? Seriously?

Look. I get it. Being pursued is kinda hot. Got it. But, you know? Here’s my ish with this particular instance:

    1. We talked about this already: Since our lil wedding-parking-lot-make-out-sesh, Miss Three-Point-Five and I have talked on and off about her lesbian virginity. Basically, I’ve laid the offer on the table, told her all she had to do was ask. She told me was into it, too, and that she would take me up on it, when she was ready.

    2. Talk is cheap: In case you’re unaware, my first time with the ladies was not, shall we say, a positive one (while I’ve never blogged the entire story, you can read a little about it here and here).  So. While I am happy to help you along your experimentation brick road, my past experience means I will never push you even a little bit if it’s your first time. I will be honest about my interest and willingness, and I will talk about it all you want and need to, but the primary indicator to me that you really do want this and you’re ready, is that you walk through that door on your own.

    3. It’s just sex: With Three-Point-Five this was always explicitly about sex only. I have no interest in being anything other than friends in the long-term. I’m not going to pretend otherwise, because that is a road I have no desire to go down (… hey I just want to go down… ha ha! ok. ). I will not risk there being any misconceptions about this based on my actions – see number #2 for additional information.

For those reasons? I am not for a second going to do anything even remotely relationship-y. And, therefore, I will not pursue. I don’t see a reason to, in fact, I see reasons not to. Furthermore, given #1 there, I don’t really understand why Three-Point-Five would even need me to. I have explicitly stated that she needs to tell me when she’s ready and that I am not going to push her on this.

And, really, I shouldn’t need to. This is something she’s talk about for three fucking years (… of no actual fucking). Why spend all that time wanting something, have very frank conversations about it, climb in my lap every chance you get… but then… you still need to be pursued?


And, PS, does this make me the dude or something?

Regardless of what we know rationally and what we say we want rationally… Three-Point Five’s behavior and exceptions really made me wonder: As much as we want to move beyond games and rules and Girls Do This and Boys Do That…

How deeply rooted are these things in how we date and create relationships?

We all complain about people who just like the chase… but how much of that dynamic remains in how we ascertain someone else’s interest, and maintain our own? We love to complain about The Rules… yet how much do we still rely on expected behavior? We say we’re so over gender roles in dating, that we all want to be equal around here… but how important is gender performance, really?

Despite what we think and vocalize, are we really paying attention to how our words are actually translated into behavior and expectations?

Do we really ever live in a world where dating and gender rules don’t apply?

24 Comments leave one →
  1. October 26, 2011 11:58 am

    Actually in some strange way our post’s this week kind of complement each other. Gender issues are very important in our society, how we are expected to act and how we are perceived by our peers.

    It seems in your case that Madam X is wanting you to pursue her and honestly why wouldn’t she. She’s the woman in this sexy little drama, and you unfortunately are the man.
    Most men are taught by our peers how to, for lack of a better term, hunt women.

    We stalk gather intelligence and then decide upon a course of action. Women by in large are taught the opposite. How to be choosy of a mate, how to avoid and how to attract.

    But I can see your point when the chick is dryhumping you it’s pretty hard not to want to take it to the next level. As you point out she may not be ready, or maybe she’s just a cock tease? Does she exhibit the same behaviors around men??

    Good story and I for one hope you do eventually get her into bed.

    • October 27, 2011 8:43 am

      I agree that gender roles are significant in our culture, but I for one don’t like them at all. I’m not one for gender performance that means guys have to “chase” me and that I then expect them to “work” for something – that I “choose” between all these pursuers.

      I hope that we can move beyond that.

      That isn’t to say we ALL have to give up those roles. If they’re comfortable for you, keep them – but that should be regardless of gender lines. Further, I don’t think they deserve to be some kind standard that we *all* use, but one of many.

      As for 3.5 – personally, I think she’s partially a cock-tease, but mostly she’s insecure and not ready. Which is fine. I have no problem with it.

  2. Jessi permalink
    October 26, 2011 12:25 pm

    What a perfect post for what I’m currently experiencing. Brief recap: Girl meets Boy. Girl makes Boy wait a while to have sex…because Girl recently got out of a relationship and felt vulnerable. Now Girl and Boy have fairly regular (amazing) sex without any sort of relationship being defined. Which seems to be fine with both Boy and Girl. However, sometimes when Girl instigates a meet-up, Boy pushes back like it’s inconvenient. Girl knows better – Boy wants to be the one in charge and doing the “pursuing.”

    I think he can’t get over those typical roles men and women are “supposed” to play. You pose an interesting question: How important is gender performance in a relationship?

    Shucks. i think that’s impossible to answer in general terms. Depends on the relationship, the people in it, the time of day…But I do believe gender performance holds more weight than everyone wants to admit it does.

    • October 27, 2011 8:47 am

      Have you tried to talk to the Boy about this at all? That sounds mildly annoying. I mean, if you don’t have time, you don’t have time – AND not all boys have sex drives that exceed their lady partners. BUT it should be something you can talk about and is clear, rather than making you feel bad about it (I’m making some inferences here).

      Another thing we don’t do well in relationships, *especially* those that are of the “not serious” variety, is communicate. It’s like talking = serious relationship or some bullshit.

      To the larger point, I think I agree. There’s a lot of behavior that we expect, even as we say something else… I don’t personally like it, and I’m not one to engage it (hence, Miss 3.5 can sleep by herself).

  3. October 26, 2011 1:39 pm

    Having no experience in girl-girl relational stuff, I’m going to chime in anyway because I have a hunch!

    She needs the nudge.

    1. Yes, you’ve told her in so many words. And yes, she may be transposing her hetero dating patterns onto you (i.e. she’s more accustomed to being pursued and that’s the role she knows how to play). But I think talk is cheap in both directions. Women have hang-ups about hooking up when its in the “traditional” man-woman set-up. Many women need the guy to pursue so that they can feel better about what they end up doing physically (“normally I wouldn’t but he was sooo persuasive”). If this girl is a lesbian virgin, the hurdle is going to be that much bigger. So she needs a bigger nudge. You know?

    2. You’re wise to tread lightly for all those reasons. But I don’t think a phone call is crossing that line.

    3. Definitely need to be careful on this point. Although reinforcing the message with her about this being a sex-only NSA deal might actually help her get over some of the fears (society, sexual identity) that are holding her back. This offer is just putting a toe in the water (ok, hopefully a bit more!) but the experience doesn’t commit her to any real change in identity…

    My 2 cents!

    • October 27, 2011 8:52 am

      I agree that she needs the nudge to get her past some lasting insecurities here – that feeling pursued for her is more than just gender roles, but is also about feeling like I really *want* her. I get that that’s something most women need, in some sense, because we DO have these insecurities, especially around sex.

      All that said, that behavior flies in the face of everything we’ve talked about, and everything she says she stands for – as well as how she feels about sexuality (she’s very out about her feelings around women). And, while I get needing the nudge thing, I just can’t bring myself to force it. I really feel like she will come around when she’s ready. I’m not into pushing her on something if she’s not.

      A big part of that IS the emotional thing. I know my first time with a lady was WAY more emotional than I ever expected it to be. I can’t risk 3.5 getting all emotionally attached. If that makes sense… I think that has a lot to do with actions over words. We can talk all we want about this being NSA, but if my actions, and her actions, say otherwise…

      I think she just needs some time.

  4. October 26, 2011 11:54 pm

    In answer to your final question: No. I think our socialization and all that we’re told about ‘how to be’ a boy or a girl affects us all more than we know.

    That said, I think Miss 3.5 is for later. You’ve told her you wiling to play when she’s ready. You’ve leered at her and let her crawl into her lap when you’ve hung out. And you even made out with her in a parking lot. What more does she need to woman up and use her big girl words (or in a pinch actions) to get the horizontal party started? The ball is firmly in her court and her failure to lob it back to you sounds like way too much work.

    • October 27, 2011 8:55 am

      Yep. Agreed. And, in my opinion, all that work has significant potential consequences. Full stop.

      The idea that she needs to woman-up is part of this, too… I think I am refusing to go further in this because I want her to break out of her “oh girls don’t do that!” or whatev mentality and go for what she wants, whether that is with me or someone else.

  5. October 27, 2011 9:39 am

    “And, PS, does this make me the dude or something?”—I was thinking the same thing.

    Pursuing definitely means relationship to me. Do you think it’s partly because she’s new to the experimenting with girls? Is she new to “no strings attached” as well?

    • October 27, 2011 3:46 pm

      I think it’s far more to do with her being conditioned to be pursued as a way for someone to show interest in her. At least, that’s my personal take.

      I don’t think she’s new to NSA sex either… but I could be wrong…? It’s just interesting because so much about her says she’s all about equality and avoiding gender performance… and then… ?

  6. October 27, 2011 1:55 pm

    Have to agree with previous comment… pursuing sounds more like a relationship thing, at least to me. If she is all talk about it for 3 years – then she either is just getting turned-on at the idea/talk and will never actually go ahead with it or she is looking for maybe a bigger emotional attachment?

    If it is just sex, then most NSA will happen if she had a few drinks (lets face it, that is when NSA sex happens for most ) and as you guys already have been at that stage and still nothing.. yeah maybe she really is not ready and who knows if she ever will be.

    If this has to do with gender roles… not sure. Maybe a bit but I’d say it has more to do with insecurities on her behalf and fear of actually doing what she proclaims she wants to do.

    You are better of not pushing her I think. If it would backfire and she would freak out afterward – then she cannot point the finger at you and say you persuaded her.

    • October 28, 2011 10:01 am

      Yeah… although I am far less worried about her “blaming” me for something and more about her becoming weirdly attached. One thing I didn’t mention here was about how she was borderline clingy with me – even feeling like she was mildly jealous when I wasn’t talking with her. It was weird, and I know it was mainly because she was drunky pants, but the reasons don’t really matter.

      An adult who knows what they want and is ready to experiment, aka someone I’m interested in experimenting with, doesn’t act like this.

      • Movedup permalink
        November 4, 2011 7:45 pm

        Oh Nikki I would have to say run not walk to the nearest exit…. Girls got issues and way to much emotional baggage for the nearest landfill. Nope looks like a train wreck from here. I would not be surprised that she would then be waiting for you to call her in the traditional day or two and be REALLY pissed if you didn’t – label you as bad as “men” and a user – although terms and conditions already explained. No I think I would leave this one alone…. regardless… there are plenty of other fish in the sea

  7. October 28, 2011 1:31 pm

    Obviously, I too do not have experience with this, however, I agree with Jess@CityGirlsWorld, she clearly needs the nudge. Not that I think you ought to give it to her, given your own reasons not to want to. But maybe one last – the door’s open – comment to her will be the nudge she needs. And then it’s up to her to walk through it.

    • October 29, 2011 3:15 pm

      Yeah… I see that for sure, but I still think this is a big step, and you had better woman-up and be able to take it yourself… in addition to all the reasons I gave. You know? There have been enough nudges/outright frank conversations… I am not here to stroke her ego into bed. In my opinion, it’s too risky otherwise – and, in my experience, it’s too big of a deal, too.

      The thing is, I’ve done the first-time thing with other ladies who wanted to experiment, and it was just. about. sex… and they stepped right up to bat. And everything was fine. You know? It’s clear, to the point, and everyone is behaving like an adult.

  8. Fantasminha permalink
    October 29, 2011 9:44 pm

    I would tread carefully here Nikki. It sounds like she is very immature (regardless of her actual age) and probably needs to do some growing up before you get involved. You don’t want to be her first time NSA encounter with another woman if she isn’t thinking NSA AND you don’t want to be the one whose shoulder she cries on if something goes wrong with her encounter with someone else. Either way, you could find yourself in a relationship whether you want one or not!

    I would not call her. Let her call you if she woman’s up.

    • October 31, 2011 1:34 pm

      I think you hit the nail on the head. She can be mature in some respects, but this is one area I think she’s still growing. I agree – wait and see at this point…

  9. Esme permalink
    October 30, 2011 12:36 pm

    I agree with the above comment. I would be worried about giving her that nudge for fear of her thinking you girls are more than you want it to be. And it sounds like to me the next day you will have a sobbing mess on your hands, and who the hell wants that?
    And I hate these dating games/rules/whatever the fuck they are…

    • October 31, 2011 1:36 pm

      Agreed. Sometimes the nudge is helpful, but in this case (especially given my past and how I reacted) I’d prefer to err on the side of caution. I don’t want her thinking the wrong thing, even if rationally she knows better… know what I mean?

      As for rules, who needs ’em? Not us. 😉

  10. October 31, 2011 10:36 pm

    “No, you call me.” Oh, how silly – straight, gay or bi. That’s just so game-y it reminds me of high school. Sounds like this one might turn into one of those awkward-at-best and dangerous-at-worst situations. Perhaps best to save yourself the drama with this one. Plenty of pussy in the sea (hahaha)!

    • November 7, 2011 12:37 pm

      Yeah… despite the story, it was how “game-y” it all was that got me, too. I don’t buy into that crap dating normally, and this just had additional reasons not to buy into it, too.


  11. November 3, 2011 8:46 pm

    oh. boy.

    well this is just interesting.

    um, first, i completely concur (i know, fancyword right?) that u absolutely should NOT pursue her in anyway, given the provided backstory. Probably since she’s never been with a girl, she’s used to guys being the pursuer and it’s weird for her if that isn’t happening. even though, like you said, this isn’t about pursuing and wooing and roses and whatever.

    so hmmmm… maybe she still isn’t ready. i dunno. or perhaps she’s just real shy about it. that could be the case and she feels like if she says the word or initiates it that it makes her feel weird or like the aggressor, even though that also isn’t the case given your previous convos.

    ugh. women. 😉

    • November 7, 2011 12:40 pm

      It is interesting… because it’s such a flip from how we’ve talked about all this. I don’t know what else I could’ve rationally done to make everything clear for her, and to leave the door open should she want to talk about things.

      And yet. Rationality not working so well. Got me thinking… why would that be?

      Yeah, well. What can you do…

  12. November 13, 2011 9:55 am

    You know how I feel about traditional gender roles and dating (“no thank you”).

    I see what she’s doing, and I think SHE thinks she’s probably “playing” this the right way by being coy. But that doesn’t mean you have to play. And if it irritates you and you don’t feel like being the aggressor/pursuer, then don’t. No need to get through it all and then be like, “DAMN, that was a lot of work,” for potentially not a lot of payoff.

    I guess all that to say, is it worth it to you to play? Doesn’t sound like it.

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