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Ever wonder how lesbians have sex?

January 20, 2011

This is a classic image by Tanya Chalkin called "The Kiss" - I think it's wicked hot, but also hung on the wall of the girl who-took-my-lesbian-virginity aka my Ultimate Crazy.

So. When did you lose your virginity?

Yes I do like to get right to the point. I’m just usually not that good at it. Today may be an exception. We’ll see.

Seems like a straight-forward question right? One everyone has an answer for (even if the answer is “I haven’t yet” – which can spark another really interesting discussion – see Met Another Frog and the Black Debutante).

Ok, fine. That one was easy. What about this, then: How about telling someone else your sexual history, and allowing them to decide for you.

Is the answer still easy?… Perhaps.

See, a recent article on this subject (Are Lifetime Lesbians Still Virgins?) by Naked With Socks On, got me thinking…

We all know when we lost our virginity, or if we are sill proud [hopefullyif not, call me sweetie and let’s chat] V-card-carriers.

And that probably means we have some idea of what the term “virginity” means.

But, NWSO raises the question: what about life-long ‘beans (as in, les-beans)? Sure, they get the gold star and all, but… are they virgins?

NWSO also makes the point that he doesn’t exactly know what goes on with lesbian sex, as he’s never been in the room with it – and can only imagine it. Now, on one hand? It’s been made clear to me that most lesbians I know reallyfuckinghateit when people ask them how lesbians have sex. Me? I don’t really care. Ask me. But then, I don’t find all that many questions offensive so.…. (and apparently I have nothing on the other hand… )

However. The point remains. It’s not exactly nice to walk up to anyone and ask them about their sex life like that.

But I am getting ahead of myself here.

Back to defining sex.

Basically, I see NWSO’s point. The first time I was with a woman, she was crazy did everything and I did nothing (I was way not ready for that – don’t worry, I got way over it).  I didn’t even know we had slept together until I talked about it (finally) with a lesbian friend. Now, of course, I’m as clear on when I’ve had sex with a woman as I am on when I’ve had sex with a man.

Look. Before you ask me how I know that, let me ask you something (it is my blog, after all), with a lil story as interlude. My mom works as a nurse practitioner for Planned Parenthood (no kidding – I know). Years ago, my mom asked my sister and I (much to our dismay at the time) if we had heard of people our age having a lot of anal sex (response: “moooooooommmmmm!” which was, of course, not helpful). See, growing up in a religious and conservative state (even if the town we lived in was far from either ), my mom was seeing an alarming and growing number of teens who were having anal sex because it allowed them to stay virgins and pure in the eyes of the Lord.

Not even kidding here, people. Of course, my mom was concerned not because she thought they had a warped sense of sex, but because hello anal sex is a great way to get STIs/STDs, even if you can avoid the whole pregnancy thing. And these kids were not using condoms.

SO. These kids didn’t think anal sex was really sex. I.e. they could do that and were still virgins.

Would you agree? And if so, what does that mean for lifelong gay men? Or for hetero couples who have anal sex? Or for men who engage in anal sex with anyone – do they get to say they haven’t had sex with that other person? If the other person is a man, can they still consider themselves straight (according to my gay boys, there are a lot of “straight” men, often with girlfriends, who claim to not be havin’ any of that gay sex, yet give out a whole heck of a lot of blowjobs)?

Are lifelong lesbians virgins?

And take it a step further, as NWSO on did:

If said lesbian decided to sleep with a man later on in life would she/he consider her a virgin at the time of intercourse? It’s not like she never had an orgasm or had never been penetrated, it just wasn’t by a man so I wonder how someone in that scenario would define their virgin status.

Therefore, if you think virginity needs to include some kind of penetration… by a penis… are you saying men need to be present in the act of sex? I mean… if you think anal penetration is clearly sex, but have trouble defining lesbian sex… really, that’s all you lacking. The penis. Because, trust me ladies and gentlemen, there is penetration. And it can be in whatever orifice you’d like  (hey, I was always an exit-only girl until another girl convinced me otherwise, so there ya go).

And, as far as I’m concerned, if I could grow a penis and use it? I would. And not because I want to be a man. So. (There are, of course, alternatives – even if they are rather hilarious.)

You see where I am going with this. What constitutes “virginity” to you? What constitutes “sex“?

It’s really quite interesting to me – this discussion on virginity and sex. And how clearly it can point out our strange need to include the male member. Seriously. I bet most of the non-lesbians who read this will have no problem calling anal sex sex, and yet take a second to think through the lesbian thing.

It’s why my lesbian friends get asked about it (well, that and some men are hoping for a graphic description. They’re lesbians you asshole). And it’s probably, whether they realize it or not, part of the reason why it bothers them (that and the assholes who want a pass into their bedrooms).

See, the points I am trying to make are:

  1. The penis does not define sex, yet somehow inherently in our minds, we think it should. I am not excluded from this – as I didn’t even know it the first time I had “lesbian sex.”  In addition, as the teens my mom was encountering can attest, it’s not just the penis for some people, but the penis –> vagina connection that’s important for sex. I personally think it points (ha ha – I’m still thinking of penises) to how ingrained hetero-ness and male dominance is in our collective consciousness. Please argue with me on this – I’d love to hear your thoughts. I’m not saying down with men (even though I am sure I should, as a feminist, right <–*sarcasm*), but… you know, just sayin’.

  2. Defining sex in certain ways can lead to exclusion: you can remove whole groups of people from discussion and dialogue by simply negating their sexual experiences. Sure, you don’t mean it that way, but that’s what it does. Questioning whether another person’s sex is valid (e.g. are you still a virgin?) is not all that nice, people. Sure, I may have just dropped a seemingly self-righteous bomb on you ass, but that’s the truth. For example: if you identify with being a straight, my second question at the beginning of this post (tell someone else your sexual history and have them decide) probably isn’t intimidating. If you identify as other than straight? You understand why that question is. Just another way us gays/bis/trans peeps are marginalized in society. And you didn’t even know you were doing it, did you. Well. Consider yourself edjumakted.

  3. Sex is a cah-razy wild thing and defies definition. Well, across the board, any way. Your definition is not necessarily mine. And my definition of sex with a man may be different from sex with a woman. And, you know what? I am a-ok with this. You should be, too. Because it’s not up to you.

I think it’s fine to have definitions. I think it’s even better to talk about them. What is not ok is putting your own definitions on other people. Or using your definitions to question and-therefore-invalidate-whether-you-meant-to-or-not someone else. I don’t ask you to take on my religious or political beliefs, do I (well… maybe I wish some people would, but…)? Then I shouldn’t ask you to take on my sexual beliefs either.

And maybe belief is a better way to describe it. What I take to be sex, and take to be virginity, are mine. You can share those definitions/beliefs, or you can have your own. The bottom line here (I will find it somewhere I swear) is that definitions should drive discussion, not end it or invalidate another point of view.

There’s a greater point to be made (really? am I using “point” like I used “newsflash” in a previous post?). If we let go of the need to define sex so strictly and across the board and for others, it opens us up to looking at other people’s experiences in a new way. Deciding that we need to define sex and virginity the same way for all of us can end that discussion – and, more damaging, undermine other definitions, thus excluding other people simply because they aren’t us. In addition, it can re-emphasize and entrench societal biases in very subtle ways, even if that wasn’t what you meant.

Instead, we can look at it as a way to hear other experiences, and to be more inclusive about what sex means to many people, not just traditional views. Hey, it might even open up options you’d like to explore, and make us all more comfortable with the sex we really want to have. It also helps us understand how other people have and view sex, thus creating more honesty and better communication about it.

We can learn to be more open to a world where sex is not black and white. It’s not blurry and gray either. Instead, honey, it’s all colors of the rainbow.

And you know how I love diversity. *wink*

PS I know y’all didn’t mean it this way, when you wanted to know about lesbian sex. I know you were just curious. I hope you now understand. Go forth more sensitive and more informed. Of course, I can still explain it to you, if you really want to know how I personally experience it. But I won’t pretend to have the answer for all lesbians. And I don’t necessarily advise breaching the topic with just anyone – make sure they’re ok with discussing it, first.

That being said, it’s fun to trade techniques…

28 Comments leave one →
  1. January 20, 2011 1:03 pm

    I’ve been thinking about our society’s phallocentric view of sex a lot over the last little while – after having a discussion with a man who tried to impress upon me that only women who ‘squirt’ upon climax experience ‘real orgasm’. Because, as we all know, you’re only climaxing right when you do it like man (please note the sarcasm).

    It seems that the antiquated thinking that posited a man’s experience as they only ‘normal’ or ‘correct’ experience during sex still dominates virtually all our discourse on exactly what sex is or isn’t – which makes no sense based on all that has been discovered about female sexuality over the last…I dunno… half a century or so. Makes you wonder when there will finally be a real shift in our thinking about this.

    Anyway, thanks so much for sharing. You’ve given me a lot more to think about…in a good way.

    • January 20, 2011 2:22 pm

      Ah yes – the “squirt” debate. Yeah… cum like a man or you’re not really cuming at all. And, since not all women are squirting all the time, perhaps they’re not as good at having sex at all… (ok that may be an extreme example…)

      The thing is, I don’t think many people even identify the hetero- AND male-ness of their sexual definitions. They just know THIS is sex… and since I don’t think oral sex is sex… then lesbians = ???

      I think it ties into the male dominance of collective consciousness in general. I mean, it’s not surprising, given our history. And as long as it’s ignorance, it’s also not something I find all that offensive. BUT. We do need to have these conversations in this way – not by trying to find the standard to which we can all apply, but to discuss these things openly and inclusively, instead. AND to not get offended when we say things like “pallocentric.” We’re not hatin’, just telling it the way we see it.

      It’s that discussion that leads to change.

      Glad you enjoyed and it was food for thought! Still lovin your blog, as always!

  2. Simmarah permalink
    January 20, 2011 1:47 pm

    Great post here doll. I love the point about beliefs driving discussions, not defining what is “right” or “wrong”. This post is bookmarked for me 🙂

  3. January 20, 2011 1:53 pm

    Hmmmm interesting topic. The reference to that anal sex is not “real” sex did make me laugh, mainly because I have come across that argument before (from people with a more strict religious beliefs). Personally I think it is a cop-out and a way to lie to yourself so that you do not need to shake up and question your beliefs.

    My personal view on what I would rate as “having sex” (am being very eloquent here…) is that if you are naked with someone; touching, feeling, doing your best to bring yourself and your partner to an orgasm then you are having sex. I know you do not have to be naked to get to that point etc but I hope you understand what I am trying to say.

    It is that physical intimacy (and emotional intimacy), horny feeling, seeking a release in whatever way does it for you. In my view it doesn’t matter if it is with a women or a man. The whole penetration of the vagina by a penis argument… nah, that is just what society/religious beliefs etc has established to be “correct” and each to their own, if that is what they wish to define as sex and loosing the virginity. Personally I think it is archaic.

    • January 20, 2011 2:32 pm

      On the anal sex point – I’d say it’s up to them. If they think it’s not sex, it’s not in their terms, not ours. However – I agree that a lot of people hide behind definitions in order to avoid really delving into what their behavior means. And, being a woman having talked to a lot of women, you have to look at how that behavior translates. Are the women always enjoying the anal sex? Is it for the men? Who knows. Me, I find anal a “special occasion” deal, not a hey-let’s-do-THAT-all-the-time. That’s just me, though.

      Another example? Instead of forcing men who engage in oral sex with other men to define as “gay” or “bi”, maybe they should focus instead on how their behavior is to others, and how they may not be honest by hiding behind the “straight” label. On one hand, women they date may or may not want to know about their blowjob abilities (and it’s not up to us, or the menz, to say if they’re ok with that). On the other, the men they are fellatio-ing probably want to know that the dudes are “straight as far as relationships, but into oral sex with men and that’s it.” You know what I mean?

      As for the general point you’re making – I agree that, if we need a standard for all, the physical intimacy, and how thing feel (and I don’t mean touching) is a good place to start. I would bet most people can get on board with that, regardless of what the actual touching entails.

      That being said, I’d argue that we need to let go of our desire to find a standard by which to measure all. Period. I know that’s really difficult for us, as people, to do. I’m not sure why. Maybe it’s so we know what we’re dealing with in the world. Hmmm… there might be a whole other post here…

      Thanks, lady!

      • January 20, 2011 5:53 pm

        Maybe it is human nature or rather an underlying need to organize and categorize definitions and behaviors so that it is easy to understand. The dilemma is that what one person finds easy to understand and to slot into a particular “box”, another person might find utterly incomprehensible.

        But that is the beauty of human nature. Two people can experience the same thing totally different. One persons standard is another persons immoral act (for lack of a better word).

        Hey, I really like this post. Makes you think and gets those grey cells to do some work. 🙂

      • January 20, 2011 7:17 pm

        YES. Perfect.

        I’ve been thinking a lot about why we need definitions so badly. Because it seems like we do. Why I can’t just tell people to through definitions to the wind! I think your point is right on – we cling to them to organize the world and make it easier to understand. I think there’s probably a lot of sociological (or something) research on exactly that.

        Your second point is even better, in my opinion. It’s maybe not letting go of definition, but instead of understanding that the other innate human attribute is that we experience the world differently – and that is a beautiful thing. We just need to realize it as such. You know?

        Glad you like it, and I am glad we’re discussing!

  4. January 20, 2011 5:07 pm

    I have to back up Ivy here, she pretty much wrote word for word what I was going to put down. Way to snatch my thunder Ivy. (Or I guess in this case it could be Thunder Snatch?)

    But I digress. Bill Clinton in my books completely underscores the way people try to get out of the whole “Having Sex” debate. She just sucked me off and pleasured herself until I came on her dress. Not sex, come on Bill grow up and grow a pair. Isn’t sex the simple act of getting off? Some people have sex alone all day long.

    It’s called phone sex for a reason and there is no exchange of messy fluids involved there.
    Anal sex is still sex. Blowjobs are still sex. Getting busy in the back seat of a Camaro finger banging is still sex.

    Let’s just face it it’s what humans do, putting labels on it trying to call it something else is just backwards. Teenagers do it, old people do it, Bible thumping Christians do it badly at home or pay for it to do it with a pro.

    The first thing we need to do is drop shame from the equation, ohh Billy and Sally got caught at the ice cream social behind the stage. Big deal. As long as they understand the consequences of what they are doing and are playing nice whats the big deal?

    Great post Nikki! Should generate lots of good commentary on this one.

    • January 20, 2011 7:22 pm

      I agree with you, Bob! I think you’re right on that going from “sex” to definition is splitting, *ahem* hairs. I think if you need a general standard, it’s a cross between what Ivy said about intimacy, and this idea that we do all really know what sex is. I mean, seriously people.

      I also agree that putting labels on it has a significant downside – it’s as if we’re trying to determine what’s “bad” or what’s “good” – what’s acceptable and what’s not. If we all were more open about it, and what we actually wanted with sex, instead of this vs. that, maybe we’d be happier. You could abstain if you wanted, but you wouldn’t have to pretend like you were if you really did want it.

      Thanks! I think there’s a part two in here… 😀 Love the discussion!

  5. January 21, 2011 1:04 am

    Great post, I used to love these debates back when I was doing philosophy and sexuality papers at university!

  6. January 21, 2011 3:30 am

    😀 As usual, great post.

    So much of what humans do is completely and utterly socially constructed– it really has fuck all (heh) to do with reality. It’s often about stroking the ego’s and ensuring the continued power of those in power, and yeah. Anxious masculinity really can’t cope with the penis not being the definitive bright line where not sex becomes sex.

    But, as everyone else has said, it’s fluid. When do I start sexxoring Mr.LH? When I have a naughty thought during the day? When I hug him? When the hug turns into a kiss? etc. and on down the chain. Was the phone sex we had while on diff. continents not real sex? Does sex require another person? Or can someone who never has body contact with another person but masturbates and is intensely sexual still be considered a virgin? Like you said, it’s best to just let go of it and tell people that the important things are a. enthusiastic consent and b. safety

    I think that another really big thing that people can’t wrap their heads around in re: lesbian sex, is that for a long time, sex was “over” when the man ejaculated. But But But!! How do they know when it’s “over”? I’ve heard induhviduals ask.

    I think too, that a lot of the desire to sort of herd people into this bottom/top/switch category maze has to do with the construction of femine=passive/masculine=aggressive and the “politics” of penetration which we have all heard about before from me 😛

    As far as the whole buttsecks for jesus thing– yeah. You know, if anything, anal sex is waaay less mistake proof than other kinds of sexual contact, in terms of the likelihood of injury or STD contraction– and this needs to be taught in school goddammit.

    But we also need to culturally let go of the idea that virginity is a valuable state in and of itself. Not to challenge anyone’s self determination, in fact the opposite– there is no such thing as a clear line between virgin/not virgin, and so attaching special value to it, (and let’s not lie, it’s special value is primarily attached to lady virgins) is asinine. But then we also need to stop talking about women’s sexuality as if it something that gets “used,” “worn out” or “given up.” You can’t know by a childless woman’s body if she has had sex, who with, how many times, what kind, anything. And with the kind of fertility tech we now, you can’t really know for sure even with a woman who has delivered a baby.

    TL;DR, there’s a lot of toxic shit contributing to a lot of exclusion, hetero/cis normative ideas, sorrow, insecurity, anxiety and bad sex that needs to be shucked. In short, I agree with you!

    • January 21, 2011 9:52 am

      Ah yes – add the “when is it over?” to this debate. Again – often ends with male climax. And where does that leave the lovely lady? Well.

      Not saying this is how it is now, or how everyone sees it. I think we’re fortunate enough that a lot of people don’t see it that way (although recently read a post of a dude whose lady friend wasn’t all that spunky in bed – because she felt sex was “the man’s job.” Right).

      But the underlying implications, or left-over residues of these thought processes still exist, although like a lot of prejudice/bias, are far more subtle than they were previously. Good – but also more difficult to bring into the light and have a look at.

      And then all the tying into women’s sex as something to be “obtained” and “used” – this is language women still use about themselves. I don’t like it.

      Thanks for the comment and yeah! Let’s find a new way to talk about these things, ok? Ok!

  7. January 21, 2011 4:09 am

    My thoughts on this matter have been well stated already by you and fellow commenters. So I’ll just say this: Ooooh. Pretty pictures.

  8. January 21, 2011 9:06 am

    I wish I could think of something more profound to post other than “lesbians rock.”

    But lesbians rock.

  9. January 22, 2011 7:25 am

    I like to think of virginity as anything I haven’t done yet. I plan on devirginizing my Nipples soon.

  10. The General (aka: Mommy) permalink
    January 22, 2011 6:33 pm

    I love your blog, really. I know that when I come by, I will get something outside the box, interesting, thought provoking, funny, the whole package. Thanks for that.

    I never thought about defining sex before. I think I lost my virginity the first time I had intercourse, I don’t think that would change if I were with a woman, as in, I don’t think I would call myself a “lesbian virgin”. Is that the whole paternalistic society thing again, maybe? Or maybe it’s just my view as a straight woman? Certainly, it is different for those who arent straight? (ok, obvious.) But, you said even you werent sure it had happened when it had. But, then when I lost my virginity, I laid there while it was happening thinking “I don’t know what’s happening, is that his finger?” It took him saying to me afterwards, “No, it wasnt my finger” for me to realize that it had happened. So, yeah- it’s an individual experience,right? Women don’t have penises- again, duh- so there must be another line to cross before it can be called sex.

    I’ve been with a woman. I wouldn’t call what we did sex, more- drunken heavy groping. My view of sex, with a woman, would involve a heavy amount of *down there* action.

    I think though, that for purposes of defining rape or molestation, sex probably does need to be defined from a homosexual perspective.

    I hope some of that made sense, otherwise I probably just come off as a raving idiot lunatic, which, you know, wouldn’t be the first time, so apologies in advance, if necessary.

    • January 24, 2011 9:13 am

      Thanks! I am glad you’re enjoying the discussions, and I try to be thought-provoking… most of the time! 😉

      My personal opinion is not there are many types of “virginity” – that is, I agree that you don’t lose another sense of virginity if you have another type of sex. I think it’s more… you lose your virginity when you enter the world of having sex (whatever that is), no matter with whom. I say I lost my “lesbian-virginity” with my tongue in my cheek (ha ha). But that is my opinion.

      As for your lost-virginity story… I really hope you knew intercourse was going to happen, you just didn’t know that was it – as opposed to he didn’t tell you he was going to do that, he just did. PLEASE tell me it wasn’t the latter – that’s a whole new box of worms. (… I mean something other than “box” don’t I…)

      In a similar vein (although I hope not in your case?) I think rape and molestation happen when lines are crossed that are not ok with the victim. As Pepper said above – sex involved “enthusiastic consent.” Period. And I think “enthusiastic” is very key there. I also think “sex” is in the eye of the victim, not the perpetrator, but that crossing those lines is the really awful thing, period, and the definitions of what happened matter far less than the horrible act of inflicting that on someone else, no matter what you define “sex” to be.

      Nope – made a lot of sense! 😀 We all have our “raving lunatic” moments (please see my next post for an example), but this was not one of yours!

      • The General (aka: Mommy) permalink
        January 25, 2011 5:08 pm

        Thanks for your reply. I am impressed as on re reading I find myself thinking “General, stop trying to be intellectual about shit you know nothing about- because it’s not fooling anyone.”

        I did want to say that yes, I fully expected the sex to happen, just that while it was happening, I was laying there wondering IF it was really happening at all. Which is probably less about my powers of perception and grasp of the obviousness and more about the state of his endowment, IYKWIM. *wink, wink*

        Anyway, I think I get now what you are saying about it being less about categorized virginity and more about general virginity. Though I still have a mental block trying to acknowledge that losing virginity does not equal penetration. Having said that, I also have to acknowledge that the notion of having sex with another woman is completely, or mostly completely, foreign to me. If I were in that situation, my perception would be altered by my experience. So… *lightbulb* Sex and Virginity is in the eye of the beholder, which I believe you have already said.

        Also, great descriptions of rape and/or molestation. Whether they can be legally defined that way, I don’t know, but that is definitely the essence of it.

        Sorry to have restated any of your points, I defend myself by pointing out that I had math teachers who cringed when I walked into the room as they knew they would be spending a large proportion of the class explaining the same fairly simple concepts to me fifteen times before I’d finally get them. Funnily enough, math is still not a strong subject for me.

      • January 26, 2011 9:28 am

        Oh – *whew* as far as your virginity story is concerned! Yes. I do know what you mean. Don’t we all.

        I know a lot of people have a “mental block” about virginity that doesn’t involve penetration. Skinny Dip says basically the same thing in her comment below. However, in my response, I tried to explore that further. What kind of penetration? As in I say in my response to her, I feel like dildos/vibrators/fingers/fists/whathaveyou don’t somehow count. Is it the penis that is necessary for that penetration to “count”? I’d challenge that to ask – why is the penis necessary for sex? And, is it huge leap to go from “penis penetration necessary” to “negates sex for people who don’t like penises”?

        See what I mean about the subtlety of male-ness and hetero-ness in our collective consciousness of sex? Does that make any sense?

  11. January 24, 2011 2:17 pm

    This was a really interesting read! I’ve always kind of wondered how lesbians define “virginity”. When it comes to sleeping with guys, I associate losing one’s virginity (or what qualifies to me as “sex”) with actual penetration. I’ve never slept with a woman but, I imagine if I ever did I’d probably equal “losing my virginity” with the first time another woman gives me an orgasm (or where I would be in a situation where this might happen). I can’t really explain why I penetration seems necessary for one situation but not the other but, that’s just my gut feeling. However, I imagine everyone’s opinion is different & mine potentially could change if I ever went down that road.

  12. January 24, 2011 2:20 pm

    Ok, I just read your definition “I think it’s more… you lose your virginity when you enter the world of having sex (whatever that is), no matter with whom” and that makes a lot of sense to me 🙂

    • January 24, 2011 7:43 pm

      Hi! Thanks for commenting!

      I think most people have issues with lesbian sex in particular because it lacks that “penetration” you speak of. However. That “penetration” requires a penis – in these terms, dildos, strap-ons, vibrators, fingers, a fist – don’t quite do it for some people. As for the orgasm, in my POV, there is just as much lesbian (or gay or whatever) sex without orgasm as there is in the hetero-sex world (both on purpose or not – and, to be frank, I’ve been able to bring women to orgasm with less than would constitute real sex in my book). Have you ever explored that further? Why it is that the penis in particular is so important to constituting “virginity”… or, therefore, sex?

      The thing is, at the risk of negating my entire argument (that we can define things for ourselves, how we see them), I think sex is one aspect of the human experience where male- and hetero-dominance is very prevalent – yet very subtle. We don’t think of our views as being framed by hetero-male-ness (or whatever), but when it comes down to it… many people have that “gut feeling” about needing a penis to be involved. Some people even need the penis to connect with a vagina. As I try to argue, that pretty much negates sexual experience for MANY people – unless they decide to have hetero-sex with someone of the opposite sex. Because that’s the only kind there is.

      Of course – add to it the points Skye and Pepper make: that only women who squirt have real orgasms, or that sex is not really “over” until the man cums. These points re-iterate to me, as a female, the male-dominance in sex: that it’s done the “best” by heteromen, and it’s over when they say so. Maybe it muddies the water in terms of clear definitions, but to me – it just makes the overall point more clear.

      I may be re-iterating what I already said… but do you see what I’m saying?

      I guess my point is not to try and tell people what sex should be, but instead to push people to think more about what their own thoughts are. About where those “definitions” come from – and to be more considerate when discussing with others. Because of they whole invalidating-other-sexual-experiences thing.

      The bottom line is allowing for more inclusion, thinking about your own thoughts and, perhaps, hidden biases (we all have them). And taking Bob’s and Ivy’s points: maybe we should focus more on the intimacy, and the feelings, and the entering-into-the-world-of-sex more seriously, as opposed to a strict definition. After all, if you ask me? Those are the things that matter, not whether or not I had a penis in me, or a dildo (well, those things matter to – but you get my point).


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